Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 1895 Location: Georgia
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: Episode 2 (Ray Gricar) discussion
"The Missing D.A."
After a Pennsylvania District Attorney goes missing, it sparks a massive national manhunt. Shockingly, the only clues he left behind are a brand new Mini Cooper and a laptop. But when they find that the computer's hard drive is too damaged to yield any vital information, the investigation comes to a standstill. But can our team of paranormal experts step in and discover the clues that can crack this baffling mystery?
On to last nights episode - the Ray Gricar disapearance. First off, here is the link to Rays website...
This one was a bit different from other cases we have worked, as its still technically a missing persons case, though few people believe that Ray is still with us - foul play seems to be the most plausible in this one, vs the other two (suicide or run away).
I believe Carla had studied this case prior, but John was brought in "cold". His nailing the color of Rays car (a bright red Mini Cooper) was a highly significant hit to me. Look around the next time you travel on the expressway and count the number of red cars you see. Fire engines aside, its just NOT popular as an exterior color at all.
I think Carla really "hit" when she visualized the warehouse - complete with beige colored doors as she had described - and then led Det. Zaccagni and I right there to this place. No - we were not driving around for hours "looking" for a warehouse with a shipping dock. She lead us directly to this place in one shot. She'd been describing in detail all afternoon the fact you go up and over train tracks and that this warehouse would be within a quarter mile. When we saw the tracks, and then the warehouse itself, the hair on my arms stood on end and my eyes started tearing up. Is it where Gricar was interrogated by his abductors and murdered? That remains to be proven, but it was damn eerie to see this place exactly as she had been describing it.
It was sort of odd to be "ghost hunting" later that night, when we don't have concrete proof that Ray is no longer with us, but I did measure several localized temperature drops in the immediate vicinity. Was it Ray trying to signal we were on the right path, another spirit in the area simply saying "Hi" or some other natural phenomena that has not been officially discovered by science yet?
What did you all think of the episode? _________________ Patrick Burns
Founder and Director, Ghost Hounds
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
Joined: Oct 28, 2004 Posts: 728 Location: Snellville, Ga
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject:
First of all, let me say a very good investigation. The episode was most interesting and even left me on the edge.
I am led to belief from the accuracy of both John and Carla on the details of this case that there was strong emotional energy left imprinted or even left hanging (if that is the case). They saw details of the known facts -red car, the place of dumping of items -the computer and hard drive, the place on the bluff that was on the river -yet up a steep hill (and then later validated by the police as a possible sighting by a withness) -these are right on.
now taken into account that they both got details of murder that point to a crime commited against him and that both believe that he is in fact dead and no longer living -in my opinion it is just as accurate to assume that he IS dead. if they got the car and the computer dump site accurately then their vision of him murdered would be just as accurate. and that is sad -it would be nice to find that he just ran away, but that is most likely not the truth.
a good show. again, short (oh please, Departure -make it a hour show next season!) and you, PB, were seen more in the program and we saw more of your involvement in the total package.
I give it three thumbs up! (or my two thumbs and someone else's!)
chris _________________ "just because you can't SEE them, doesn't mean they're not there!"
Last edited by wingedguy on Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
I think WG is absolutely right. The impressions John and Carla were getting were definitely "right on".
I guess I've never thought about the expense involved in trying to find a murderer. I wish more could be done to analyze Ray's hard drive. But it's true - I guess to spend a great deal of $ on that to no avail would.......well........suck. But what if it proved fruitful? Although I think Carla was right when she said that the computer was thrown into the river as a diversion. There may be nothing substantial on it.
I'm hoping his body is found soon.
The show was excellent. I'll add my two thumbs up to WG's.
Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 1895 Location: Georgia
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject:
wingedguy wrote:
and that is sad -it would be nice to find that he just ran away, but that is most likely not the truth.
That's very true - I think that I speak for John and Carla BOTH when I say this is one time where they would like to be totally wrong and have Ray turn up safe and sound, however everyone thinks its extremely unlikely that he just "walked away". Those that knew him personally said there is no way he would have done that to his family, and certainly not 6 months from retirement. Leave everything - his car, belongings, cash and just vanish to take on a new identity? That theory just never added up to me.
Suicide is more plausible; maybe he was depressed about his impending retirement, but typically there is a significant change in someones personality as a precursor to that. And again, those that were close to him had not noted anything to suggest this. On the contrary, by all accounts he was looking forward to his retirement and spending more time with his girlfriend. Of course no suicide note has been discovered either, so this scenario is extremely unlikely. The mysterious clues - cigarette ash in the car of someone who hated smoking, the laptop with the hard drive removed in the river (hard drives don't easily come loose from laptops), his car abandoned... too many suspicious variables to suggest either of the former IMO. _________________ Patrick Burns
Founder and Director, Ghost Hounds
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
Joined: Feb 03, 2005 Posts: 1024 Location: Columbia, SC
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject:
They need to give you more time...There is so much more to your work then most people know. They might have the "mind" but you have the "brains" _________________ Your loved ones are not gone...They are just harder to see and hear!!!
Joined: Oct 28, 2004 Posts: 728 Location: Snellville, Ga
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:45 pm Post subject:
there were two important clues that you brought up in that last post Geek that are poignant -the cigarette ash in a non-smoker's car -it was found not in a position of someone actually smoking in the car, but of one who was leaning in the window as if addressing Ray.
another -the hard drive. the information presented was that the police found the hard drive separately from the computer and at a LATER date than the actual laptop case. this is EXTREMELY important as it points to someone outside of the victim who perhaps came back at at later date and time to "dump" the cleaned hard drive. the hard drive is a clue of someone outside of Ray and possibly dismisses suicide at factual.
the suicide factor it plausible, but not likely. most psychologists will testify that in attempts and successes in suicide that there are, in most cases, factors which precede the act as well as factors which are prevalent in which the victim performs to validate his personal suffering. NONE of these were found! known signs of depression or anxiety, physical signs -such as loss of weight or substance abuse, irritability, ect. nor were there any letters, lists, wills, goodbyes, finished projects, ect.
to me, this is the biggest thing to show that foul play WAS a factor in the presumed death of Ray. _________________ "just because you can't SEE them, doesn't mean they're not there!"
Another great episode GG!! I like the fact that he had just make a conviction on a large drug bust that may have been leading to something more, which might have led to his possible demise. Hopefully at the end of the season they can go back and give updates on the cases the Three Amigos have shed new light on. A .99 is great Neilson rating especially for Court TV!
Cheers,
Kent _________________ "People want to know why I do this, why I write such gross stuff. I like to tell them I have the heart of a small boy -- and I keep it in a jar on my desk." - Stephen King
http://www.myspace.com/kent_f
on a serious note, i find this show to be both entertaining and a huge cause of mental distress for me. on one hand, i am highly skeptical of psychics (especially psychics on TV). Alot of me doesn't want to believe it and wants to pass it off as staged. At the same time, I trust patrick to be professional and honest about this, and he says that carla and john have no prior knowledge of this stuff. I just don't know what to think!
thank god for small miracles. The mere fact that patrick is answering questions vs. hiding behind some alleged secret gag order and is encouraging people to offer up constructive criticism of the show to me places more credibility in his evidence than anything the buffoons from taps have presented to date.
Joined: Feb 03, 2005 Posts: 1024 Location: Columbia, SC
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject:
After doing the google thing I found that the DA's brother had committed suicide 9 years ago. So perhaps mental problems did run in the family. This is a direct exert form the Philadelphia Daily News 5/13/05 "Mental-health experts note that suicide typically runs in families, and some local people - like attorney Bryant - think that with his retirement imminent and with possible symptoms of depression, that Gricar may have met the same fate as his brother". Checking further there were at least 2 people in near by communities that gave a positive ID on the DA and stated that they had seen him 2 days after he was reported missing. One even mentioned that he had talked about his favorite baseball team the Cleveland Indians.
I hope that there is a good outcome to the whole issue but we may never know...Later updates would be great!! _________________ Your loved ones are not gone...They are just harder to see and hear!!!
Joined: Oct 28, 2004 Posts: 728 Location: Snellville, Ga
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject:
Goldfollies wrote:
After doing the google thing I found that the DA's brother had committed suicide 9 years ago. So perhaps mental problems did run in the family. This is a direct exert form the Philadelphia Daily News 5/13/05 "Mental-health experts note that suicide typically runs in families, and some local people - like attorney Bryant - think that with his retirement imminent and with possible symptoms of depression, that Gricar may have met the same fate as his brother". Checking further there were at least 2 people in near by communities that gave a positive ID on the DA and stated that they had seen him 2 days after he was reported missing.
one problem with that -it is the media and they speculate very often on sensational cases in which they had NO facts. such as this case.
the investigator DID mention that there were no direct leads to him showing any signs of any distress before his disappearance. his fellow employess even testified to that.
mental illness is not necessarily a hereditary trait -it is often isolated and situationally centered.
and another problem with that particular theory. NO suicide has ever killed themselves and then got up and buried their body or hid themselves from being found.
that is called murder - not suicide! _________________ "just because you can't SEE them, doesn't mean they're not there!"
Last edited by wingedguy on Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Nov 23, 2005 Posts: 214 Location: Columbus, Georgia
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:48 pm Post subject:
Just putting my two cents in....
I think Patrick clearly said that they still have no proof that Ray is no longer with us.... So, at this point, I think all possibilities still need to be considered based on all the evidence. IMHO, the theories presented by Carla and John remain just that until a body or concrete evidence based on their readings are found.
Of all the mental illnesses, depression (which is most related to suicidal behavior) has a strong genetic link (due to inherited neurotransmitter imbalances that lead to depressed mood). In most cases in which the individual truly wants to die and does not want to be stopped, no one may have a clue that this is what is in process. Generally, those who want their suffering acknowledged are those individuals who attempt suicide without the ultimate personal goal of being successful. They are the ones who do leave clues so that they can be stopped and paid attention to.
This is a very strange world with people who may do totally inexplicable things to the minds of nist people, so disappearing and leaving everything behind also remains a possibility to me. It would not be the first time such a thing has occurred.
So, at this point, I remain open to most possibilities....
Kimberly _________________ Our imagination is stretched to the utmost, not, as in fiction, to imagine things which are not really there, but just to comprehend those things which are there. Richard Feynman
Joined: Feb 03, 2005 Posts: 1024 Location: Columbia, SC
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject:
I agree with both of you...my only point was and still is ...No one knows what happened to the DA ...One can speculate on all areas of the disappearance... I would love to see him just turn up...Alive. _________________ Your loved ones are not gone...They are just harder to see and hear!!!
Joined: Aug 17, 2005 Posts: 272 Location: elmira,new york
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject:
i'm really surprised you did'nt try to acess the hardrive,being the computer person you are.secondly,i had a "weird" feeling,after watctching this episode.i gotta say,"it kept me on edge"!.
_________________ i know not with what weapons World War III will be fought,
but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones
-Albert Einstein-
Joined: Aug 17, 2005 Posts: 272 Location: elmira,new york
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:13 pm Post subject:
alright,i'm not gonna lie...after watching the show,i felt a deep sense of desperation,i cried,i dont know why.i'm not "sensitive",my dad was.i'm a grown man,but i felt a "feeling" to get the rest of my family out of this. _________________ i know not with what weapons World War III will be fought,
but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones
-Albert Einstein-
Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 1895 Location: Georgia
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:26 pm Post subject:
mephistopheles wrote:
i'm really surprised you did'nt try to acess the hardrive,being the computer person you are.secondly,i had a "weird" feeling,after watctching this episode.i gotta say,"it kept me on edge"!.
Oh the drive WAS sent to a forensics lab in an attempt to recover data. Yes, I'm a computer person, but you can't simply plug it in and try to read it when its been underwater for that period of time! A hard drive is an unbelievably sensitive, precision piece of high tech gear built to amazingly fine tolerances. So fine in fact, you wouldn't believe it if I told you. To recover data off of a HD that has been contaminated being submerged like that has to be performed in a "clean room" and the process is VERY complex and very expensive. Its an "art form" of sorts. Unfortunately in the case of Rays computer, they were unable to recover any useful data from it. This brings me to comments from Denisee in another thread...
Denisee wrote:
Patrick, do you think there will be a way in the near future to recover data from hard drives that are as damaged as Ray's? It seems with all the technology out there, there might be a way soon.
Again, they were unsuccessful getting any usable data off with present day technology, but the drive is being retained by the investigators in hopes that one day technology MIGHT improve enough to where it yields clues.
One of the very strange things about the laptop that didn't make it into the show... Rays girlfriend said he hardly EVER used it. He rarely took it with even on business trips. It sat on a shelf in a closet most of the time. Whats even MORE strange is that the case and power cord were left behind - he took the computer with him ONLY.
This one is a very bizarre, puzzling mystery with twists and turns that don't seem to connect, but of course do - they just lack the central info to tie it all together. _________________ Patrick Burns
Founder and Director, Ghost Hounds
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
Joined: Nov 23, 2005 Posts: 214 Location: Columbus, Georgia
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:43 am Post subject:
A question about computers, Patrick, from a very low tech person - - me....
If Ray was not very familiar with that computer (i.e., he hardly ever used it), would he have had the ability to take something as sensitive as the hard drive out himself?
Kimberly
P.S. I'm sure someone else has asked this question elsewhere, but is "Haunting Evidence" planning on providing updates on the cases based on the information you three provided to them? _________________ Our imagination is stretched to the utmost, not, as in fiction, to imagine things which are not really there, but just to comprehend those things which are there. Richard Feynman
Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 1895 Location: Georgia
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:27 am Post subject:
ScaryMom wrote:
A question about computers, Patrick, from a very low tech person - - me....
If Ray was not very familiar with that computer (i.e., he hardly ever used it), would he have had the ability to take something as sensitive as the hard drive out himself?
Kimberly
P.S. I'm sure someone else has asked this question elsewhere, but is "Haunting Evidence" planning on providing updates on the cases based on the information you three provided to them?
To answer the first part... typically a laptops hard drive is more accessible than say the hard drive on a desktop computer. In some instances you need only remove two small screws and then the drive enclosure pops out. Sometimes there are no screws that need to be removed even - just a small latch that needs to be slid over for the drive to be freed from its bay.
I did inspect the laptop while I was allowed to handle it. This particular model (A Gateway if I'm not mistaken) I recall was the latter - one where the drive is held in place by a latch. Its POSSIBLE that the impact against the water surface (IF it was in fact thrown from the bridge) might have caused the drive to become dislodged, but pretty darn unlikely IMO. Besides that, I didn't note any structural damage to the case. And even with the drive bay latch open, the drive itself needs to be worked free from its connector pins, making that much more unlikely it fell out on its own. The police believe it was deliberately removed from the computer, and I agree with that scenario.
For the 2'nd part of your question - yes. If there is ANY break in any of these cases, we've been assured there will be a follow up or recap in future episodes - much like they did on the "Unsolved Mysteries" program. _________________ Patrick Burns
Founder and Director, Ghost Hounds
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 1895 Location: Georgia
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:27 am Post subject:
ScaryMom wrote:
A question about computers, Patrick, from a very low tech person - - me....
If Ray was not very familiar with that computer (i.e., he hardly ever used it), would he have had the ability to take something as sensitive as the hard drive out himself?
Kimberly
P.S. I'm sure someone else has asked this question elsewhere, but is "Haunting Evidence" planning on providing updates on the cases based on the information you three provided to them?
To answer the first part... typically a laptops hard drive is more accessible than say the hard drive on a desktop computer. In some instances you need only remove two small screws and then the drive enclosure pops out. Sometimes there are no screws that need to be removed even - just a small latch that needs to be slid over for the drive to be freed from its bay.
I did inspect the laptop while I was allowed to handle it. This particular model (A Gateway if I'm not mistaken) I recall was the latter - one where the drive is held in place by a latch. Its POSSIBLE that the impact against the water surface (IF it was in fact thrown from the bridge) might have caused the drive to become dislodged, but pretty darn unlikely IMO. Besides that, I didn't note any structural damage to the case. And even with the drive bay latch open, the drive itself needs to be worked free from its connector pins, making that much more unlikely it fell out on its own. The police believe it was deliberately removed from the computer, and I agree with that scenario.
For the 2'nd part of your question - yes. If there is ANY break in any of these cases, we've been assured there will be a follow up or recap in future episodes - much like they did on the "Unsolved Mysteries" program. _________________ Patrick Burns
Founder and Director, Ghost Hounds
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
Again, I have to say 8 out of 10. It is becoming apparent that the show is centered around the two psychics and Patrick is there to help. I don't like this. I don't know these people and I am not going to just jump and believe them. When there is scientific evidence along side the spiritual (Dead Famous is great on doing this) then it is easier to get to know the people and tell if they are real. I just think that Patrick isn't being used to his full potential. I hate to say this, but it is becoming like Most Haunted where it was Derek for like 30 minutes or more. I mean come on, one time in the show they let Patrick set up equipment? Please. I just am not impressed with the show and I think if they don't go and show some scientific evidence and use the paranormal investigator they got, then there is no creditability to them (Court TV) and not using Patrick to his full potential will look foolish. Again not to bash Patrick, but you are not being used to your full potential. _________________ Member of ROSE Paranormal
Joined: Jun 02, 2006 Posts: 416 Location: Douglasville, GA
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:02 pm Post subject:
I found this weeks episode to be quite enjoyable. The show has a nice, compact feel to it. It's fascinating to watch the psychics go about their investigations. Patrick continues to lean an air of credibility to the investigation, as well. Nicely done.
What anyone thinks of the new evidence really doesn't matter. I give the show a thumbs up. H.E. Did the job. It created NEW interest in a very frustrating case. I hope the case is solved as a result of the show.
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Is it where Gricar was interrogated by his abductors and murdered? That remains to be proven, but it was damn eerie to see this place exactly as she had been describing it.
What anyone thinks of the new evidence really doesn't matter. I give the show a thumbs up. H.E. Did the job. It created NEW interest in a very frustrating case. I hope the case is solved as a result of the show.