Joined: Oct 28, 2004 Posts: 728 Location: Snellville, Ga
Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: critical analysis of prospective paranormal pics
now that GhostGeek has the kinks fixed in the photo's section, many of the photos that we've all taken in the last months will finally be able to be viewed and in short time. thanks again, Geek for finding the problem and resolving it in your precious off time!
please take the spirit in which I post this thread as constructive and in an effort to be helpful to others on the site.
I would like to bring up a subject that is tremendously important in the research of paranormal activity and is one that can quickly invalidate something of interest in a picture.
one of the things I have noticed in the posting of pictures of interest is a poster's desire (or claim of desire) for critical analysis of their pic. the picture is posted, yet when the critical analysis comes through on the pic, the feelings of the poster sometimes gets fluffed the wrong way by the remarks on the post and even sometimes those comments get out of sorts in return. if the reason for the post is for critical analysis, then the analysis will have to be critical to be true!
may I recommend that each of us FIRST do a critical analysis of our photos personally before we post them to try to find a common reason for the anamoly -porch light shining through, reflection of something material that is showing up on film, or common pixalations which matrix and can easily look like a myriad of "other-world" inhabitants.
on orbs, I personally have come to the conclusion that in still pics, that if there are multi, multi perfectly circular orbs in a night picture formed at an equal distance from each other, most likely they are not ghostly, but something else like dew. or moisture. or rain! clear nights which seem to bring us out for hunts usually are prime targets for a "dew-orb" pic. moisture falls and rises and is prevalent in pics in open areas.
also, pixalation is a problem on pics that are posted and when there is matrixing, the pics tend to look like so much that can seem "eery" to us. in some cases, the poster thinks they see a giant eye or some entity which, in scale, is 6 feet taller in relation to the smaller tree beside it, or the giant face which is appearing between the branches of the trees. to me, all these seem to be quickly and easily explained as pixalation and matrixing, and I tend to quickly move on to another picture. proper scale is a BIG thing which makes one interested in a pic and leaves the viewer wondering, "what is that?!" I have never heard of someone who has actually testified to seeing a 16 foot apparition nor have I heard of any "true" accounts of 900 ghosts floating together in a perfect unison in a field. perhaps there is a reason in these.
the biggest thing we must consider in what we submit is to be absolutely familiar with all the conditions in which the pic was taken. this can help to further eliminate those factors which might reveal the pic as false positive.
no one wants to feel the air let out of their excitement of a "great" photo when it is pointed out to them a common explaination for the resulting affect. be jealous of your photos and personally critical of your own photo! and in that jealousy, if it passes to the next level, the post, then it will be more remarkable to those who see it and more beneficial to research in general. I think the photos of "unexplained things" has got somewhat out of hand in the past with many pictures with explainables taking up expensive space.
and with the limited time that Geek now has to review the content of pics, anything that can be easily explained should be left to email sharing and submission to interested parties on the pic. I know this can help him out tremendously and we can help by eliminating those which we find as "possibly not."
I enjoy this site and the hard work done to provide it. I think we can further the work of paranormal research for each other if we take personal accountability for what we submit and first try to reason the affect out.
I look forward to some really cool pics!
chris _________________ "just because you can't SEE them, doesn't mean they're not there!"
Last edited by wingedguy on Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:54 pm; edited 3 times in total
Joined: Jun 18, 2005 Posts: 1228 Location: Georgia
Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:47 pm Post subject:
Guess that just killed my orb formation pic! Seriously, I submitted a pic with orbs circling a tree. I knew the orbs might not be paranormal in origin and I knew they were possibly moving within a current of air, but I questioned the equal spacing of them. I wasnt aware that it was common for moisture/dust to be so evenly spaced. Now I know. I was hoping to get a comment under my pic such as that so I would know for the future. There will most likely still be alot of pics submitted with non-paranormal causes because many of us still have alot to learn. Perhaps, if we had a section for the beginner that discussed and gave examples of non-paranormal things most commonly mistaken for the paranormal, such as orbs, or pixelation, or matrixing. Some of those things may already be addressed in false positives, I havent been thru all of it. If they are there already, then maybe something on the home page or on the media submissions page directing us to those areas would cut down on the amount of pics submitted that arent paranormal. Just a thought... _________________ "Frankly, Scallop...I dont give a clam!"
Joined: Oct 28, 2004 Posts: 728 Location: Snellville, Ga
Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject:
my comments, Hoot, were not to any submission in particular -I thought it best to bring it up before pics start coming in.
we need to be respectful of Geek's time spent on reviewing our submissions and those things which are not truly examples of unexplained should be held back -for his sake.
in the past, there would be pics with "little men" standing beside a tombstone, or of a little girl's face sideways in the grain of the beams of a wooden trestle. they were obviously results of matrixing or of computer pixals which show when a photo is enlarged. these are the things that seem to make a picture instantly "false."
lol. I have to believe that if a ghost is aware of our presence and wants to make himself known to us he would hardly have to be disguised as a tree branch. I'd rather believe that when an apparition is seen it is in the form and scale the person was in life -5' 7" -not 23 inches tall, nor looking down at us through from the roof of a house like the Jolly Green Giant!
call me crazy... _________________ "just because you can't SEE them, doesn't mean they're not there!"
Last edited by wingedguy on Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:43 pm; edited 3 times in total
Personally I do not know how a ghost would show himself . I'm inclined to think since there is energy involved , a ghost make take the path of least resistence .
I think that if someone really thinks they have something unsettling in their photos and want comments , let them post them . WE cannot make a blanket statement like don't post round balls of light , or anything misty it's only smoke ....making a statement like that will leave GG with NO photos . How often is anyone going to get a ghost to apparate in full form , period dess , and a sign reading " Ghost" ??? _________________ Shelley Hobbs
Investigator :Vermont
Okemo Valley Ghost Investigations
Joined: Oct 28, 2004 Posts: 728 Location: Snellville, Ga
Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:36 pm Post subject:
that's not what I said in this post, Mae. and it was certainly NOT to anyone nor of anyone's pictures in general.
unfortunately, this was the problem with the photo post before -one would ask for critique, when it came in sincerity, feelings were hurt.
and then pics got posted and some got passed over without a single comment -because no one wants to say the obvious.
I'm just thinking of the time involved in reviewing all the emails for Geek. we certainly can be more critical of our own stuff and see if it passes the "obvious" test. that's all I proposed.
again, no one in particular was targeted in this post -that is not in my nature nor is it my intention.
true research allows for the elimination of the provable to try to find an explaination for the unknown. this is the reason for my comments -to help eliminate the provables to find the unknown. _________________ "just because you can't SEE them, doesn't mean they're not there!"
Joined: Jun 18, 2005 Posts: 1228 Location: Georgia
Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject:
I knew you werent referring to any particular submissions, WG. What I mean is that sometimes, you have tried to rule out natural causes, but you are limited to what knowledge you have on the subject matter. The beginner sometimes has no knowledge at all. Speaking for myself, I submit pics to find out if someone else can enlighten me on what I see there. Its disappointing if you find out that its not paranormal, but thats one of the objectives when you submit something; To learn all about natural causes so you can critique your own data objectively. Maybe in an effort to take some of the load off of GG, Someone could post some links to sites that teach what things to look for or rule out on pics. Might be a good starting point for the beginner and a reference point that anyone can refer to for comparison study. _________________ "Frankly, Scallop...I dont give a clam!"
We need to remember that yes , us old members know what is postable and what is not . But it did take us awhile to learn that . I learned through putting pictures out there and I was told about dust , rain , smoke , breath nd on...but someone new does not have that experience . Anyone should be able to post their pictures and learn from it . _________________ Shelley Hobbs
Investigator :Vermont
Okemo Valley Ghost Investigations
Joined: Jun 18, 2005 Posts: 1228 Location: Georgia
Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:48 pm Post subject:
I really dont believe WG is suggesting that we dont post pics. He is merely suggesting that we do some research ourself and rule out what we can before posting something. I know that the last time I was thumbing thru the False Positive section, it was full of great info. Maybe I should check it out again myself and I will be sure to recommend it to the new members if they have questions. _________________ "Frankly, Scallop...I dont give a clam!"
Joined: Oct 28, 2004 Posts: 728 Location: Snellville, Ga
Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:50 pm Post subject:
"anyone should be able to post their pictures and learn from it"
again, this is not what I said in my post. I proposed that each one of us FIRST critique our own work and try to explain variables which might have caused the abnormality.
I certainly did not propose that anyone new could not submit anything they question.
again, we all can practice sending pics back and forth to each other and allow for serious critique. -that is if we really WANT it!
if not, then the section becomes nothing more than a collection of photos.
I'm sorry if you misunderstood my post.
it was truly intended to help Geek with his backlog.
_________________ "just because you can't SEE them, doesn't mean they're not there!"
Last edited by wingedguy on Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:51 pm; edited 6 times in total
No controversy here ! You guys are my best friends !
I know WG that's not what YOU said dear ,it's what I said .I just know how important it was when I first came here to learn from everyone here . This is the best site on the net !! _________________ Shelley Hobbs
Investigator :Vermont
Okemo Valley Ghost Investigations
I agree with mae-bea, this is the BEST site on the net and it's my belief that it's because there is so much time and effort put into it...if we could all do our part on our end before sending the "load" to the proffessionals, I DO think it would help tremendously in keeping their workload minimized.
Thanx again WG & GG!!(and of course the execs or assts)
Joined: Aug 04, 2004 Posts: 3709 Location: Houston Texas area
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:15 am Post subject:
Now that the arguing is done.
The typical person actually knows very little about photography.
It is with this in mind that we must look at the pictures posted. A while back I posted a picture of a "streaking orb". This was nothing more than a hair held in front the lens when the picture was taken.
Some more of this type of experiment picture is what is needed in order to teach with. Those of us with knowledge and ability could fake some of the effects and then tell how it was done. this would allow the newer photographer to see what we are saying and arm them with the tools of thought needed to examine their own photos.
Thanx
Sean _________________ Based on the condition that you are incapable of moving at a high velocity with large animals of the canine species, then you shall be required to remain in a location that is in the general vicinity of the front door of your domicile.
Maybe it should be required reading to look at the false positive section before posting . There really is some good info in there . From hair , to camera straps , double exposures , movement , and purposely faked pics . It may help to eliminate the obvious . _________________ Shelley Hobbs
Investigator :Vermont
Okemo Valley Ghost Investigations
Joined: Oct 28, 2004 Posts: 728 Location: Snellville, Ga
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:58 am Post subject:
mae-bea wrote:
Maybe it should be required reading to look at the false positive section before posting . There really is some good info in there . From hair , to camera straps , double exposures , movement , and purposely faked pics . It may help to eliminate the obvious .
I agree there are some great examples of some good info there.
well, maybe it should be suggested reading; just the mention of something like the false positives section will encourage another to go and look. and from that action perhaps one can determine if their good catch is just a good pic with an explainable effect.
again, this is the whole purpose for my thread. I am able to be the most critical of my own work. If I have a pic in which I can determine that I shook the camera while the shutter was open, or my night picture with thousands of equal size and intensity orbs that are evenly spaced is most likely a dew effect, then I can eliminate those myself as camera/flash effects. THEN when I do get something that is really intriguing I can then highlight that one pic as something that I would want others to critique. It's all part of the learning process -to be able to grow beyond the first level and into the next in research.
without this personal critique, the backlog becomes greater for Patrick. and then it takes days for him to be able to preview and then post a pic, and eventually the question comes around, "where is the pic I submitted?" this can help with the whole process.
another Hound mentioned the dismay of having photos posted in the section in which no one honestly responded to the effect in the pic. the only response was, "good pic!" even though the person wanted honest critique, no one would state the obvious. this doesn't really help the person to evaluate their pics in the future -so this person will continue to think their interesting pic with physical effects is in actuality something paranormal.
the biggest help one can provide to another is in the sharing of experience and knowledge -and this kind of thread on this site is the best way to allow someone to learn. and maybe that is something that could be a constant on the forum -a contiuous post on effects that one has personally found in their pics. _________________ "just because you can't SEE them, doesn't mean they're not there!"
WG , if you have looked at other sites of Ghost Investigators ( self proclaimed )...some of the pictures out there are highly questionable . Yet some young groups are offering them as proof . ( I am not talking about any one here !!! )The layman will look at those and think they have as good or a better picture . and maybe they do !!
Pictures and video will probably always be a highly controversal topic .
GG had it right when he said you need to submit more than just a picture , but a combination of EMF , Temps , possibly audio ...As more and more people start running around snapping pictures , this is only going to get worse . _________________ Shelley Hobbs
Investigator :Vermont
Okemo Valley Ghost Investigations
Joined: Oct 28, 2004 Posts: 728 Location: Snellville, Ga
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:30 am Post subject:
mae-bea wrote:
...As more and more people start running around snapping pictures , this is only going to get worse .
hence, my thread. we can help by FIRST reviewing our own pics and taking responsibility for them ourselves. then we will have less of those types of photos which are obviously false.
lol. this WAS the point I made in this thread! _________________ "just because you can't SEE them, doesn't mean they're not there!"
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 329 Location: Denver, CO
Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:37 am Post subject:
Maybe one of the more experienced members of our group could drum up a quick little tutorial on the subject to post here for beginners to read. Just the basics of what the most common misconceptions are and how they are caused. Might be worth considering.
Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 1895 Location: Georgia
Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject:
Beeblebrox wrote:
Maybe one of the more experienced members of our group could drum up a quick little tutorial on the subject to post here for beginners to read. Just the basics of what the most common misconceptions are and how they are caused. Might be worth considering.
I've been meaning to create a short video tutorial on this very subject, but somehow I manage to keep getting sidetracked with... well, other things!
It's "in the works" though (along with a bazillion other things) I'll hopefully have this online soon... _________________ Patrick Burns
Founder and Director, Ghost Hounds
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 329 Location: Denver, CO
Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:51 pm Post subject:
Sounds cool, GG, I can't wait to see it.
In the mean time, here is an interesting article about orbs in photography. It doesn't really go into detail about how to tell if an anomaly is "real" but it does give a few examples of false postives and what the photographer did to create them:
Joined: Dec 14, 2005 Posts: 47 Location: Savannah, Georgia
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject:
I won't pretend to know what orbs are or could be. But I have tried to simulate them, I have even seen dust illuminate in front of me with a camera flash when taking pictures where orbs have materialised in the photo.
But does anyone have any ideas as to why only ONE orb shows up in some pictures? Wouldn't that disregard the dust theory, because dust particles travel in packs, do they not? I'm sure it is possible for ONE dust particle to be floating around, or for ONE to show up when the others dont.... and energy wouldnt be contained in the form of a perfect circle would it? But, the way some orbs show up in the strangest places in photos, it makes you wonder!
Joined: Oct 28, 2004 Posts: 728 Location: Snellville, Ga
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:08 pm Post subject:
hello Spoooky -
there are all kinds of things within the air around us in which we do not see -everything from particles and matter to viral organisms and water droplets. they are around us at all times, everywhere we go. and all of which can be illuminated and singled out by a camera with a flash.
any living organism expells cells and skin matter -epithelials; humans, animals, plant matter, fish -all living things shed. these cast off cells (or dandruff) float all about the air, picked up by currents and travel in the air some distance. heavier matter usually sinks to the ground.
other items such as fabric and cloth are made up of plant fibers, and even synthetic fibers, which mimic those natural fibers, and these also float about.
and add to that whenever a living mammel breathes out, water vapors are expelled in the breath which leaves the body. (hence, the flu bug and other viruses which are carried about in the air).
all of these things can be reflected in a single flash. they are SO common that they are practically in every recorded pic -it is just a matter of the reflection which makes them copy. and sometimes they are SO plentiful that many show up in various shapes, forvever suspended in time in the photo.
a single item can be caught in the flash of the camera and reflect. as that reflection of light bounces off and returns the light makes a 180 degree path back to the lens and is captured at the point in which it is stopped. this is why a perfect circle is formed on film.
another phenomena is when an item like a hair is reflected and captured -the effect is a streak of light which looks nothing like a common hair.
so there you have it. and the reason why so many orbs are mistaken as something of paranormal interest. most of the time they are just reflections of physical things in the air.
chris _________________ "just because you can't SEE them, doesn't mean they're not there!"
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Seriously, I submitted a pic with orbs circling a tree. I knew the orbs might not be paranormal in origin and I knew they were possibly moving within a current of air, but I questioned the equal spacing of them. I wasnt aware that it was common for moisture/dust to be so evenly spaced. Now I know. I was hoping to get a comment under my pic such as that so I would know for the future. There will most likely still be alot of pics submitted with non-paranormal causes because many of us still have alot to learn. Perhaps, if we had a section for the beginner that discussed and gave examples of non-paranormal things most commonly mistaken for the paranormal, such as orbs, or pixelation, or matrixing. Some of those things may already be addressed in false positives, I havent been thru all of it. If they are there already, then maybe something on the home page or on the media submissions page directing us to those areas would cut down on the amount of pics submitted that arent paranormal. Just a thought...
