Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:46 am Post subject: ghosts and thermodynamics
HI Wheelz!
I just read your thermodynamics post... and all the great replies... I'm so happy there are others out there that think about this stuff!
I think about this stuff all the time! This is a fantastic outlet! I have many 'what if's' for ya'll...
I just wanted to say that I agree with, and recently made, this argument. I called it energy 1 and energy 2... energy 1 is the chemical and heat energy that remains mostly constant ( beholden to laws).... the second is the "encapsulation of identity" energy, which may, or may not have many levels (i.e. auras, mind, psyche, or emotions).... that "hold" who we are in a certain kind of "field"....
However, the energies are very different. And I believe the second can be created, damaged and/or destroyed.
What no one has talked about yet is electricity. The flow of electrical current creates EMFs. Technically, the body is one big chemical sack of protoplasm.... Which conducts electrical energy on many different levels and in many different circuits (hence EMF around us). Also with properties of a battery... Maybe what disperses or breaks down when we pass is the polarities that create our electrical current, and with it our EMF. (??????)
What if this alleged weight difference at death is actually the cessation of the electrical current? The muscles are contracted to varying degrees, and in a certain way, with the application of current, but stop contracting entirely when the current is gone... like when trying to pick someone up, people are really heavy when they don't "help".... (I was a massage therapy student for awhile.. )like the frequent reference to "dead weight", (implying it's heavier than live weight?)....
As for near death experiences.....not being possible to record information at zero EEG, is limiting the analogy of the brain to an electrically dependant voice recorder or machine separate from it's environment.. . Unplugged, it is inert. and does not function at all. - that the brain is separate from the body (which has been a commonly held belief in the past, don't know the progress on that now)
**And** this track also assumes that the brain is the sense gatherer.......which it is not, the rest of the body is (skin, ears, eyes, nose).. These sense organs gather and communicate data mainly on a chemical level. The brain only compiles, processes, and organizes the info. Basically speaking... (I know there is more to it) So, technically, it wouldn't matter if it had zero EEGs... (??) but it would matter more if there was zero cellular chemical activity... (??)
Isn't "zero brain waves" declaration of death really only the beginning? And really just to be able to pronounce time of "death", practically speaking. As medicine progresses, so does the declaration of death. It used to be if someone wasn't breathing, right? Many people got buried alive.... for awhile there, bells strung into the caskets were a big seller!...
Now, it's absolutely proven that the body dies at many different rates... what if the senses continue to gather info that just backs up, or builds up, (because were like a "battery", and theoretically can hold a charge for a bit) in the nerves until the person is revived and then it gets sort of "sucked" into the brain circuitry, and "played"? Maybe like static electricity that suddenly discharges? To flow, or not to flow, that is the question...
"Unplugged", the body is far from inert. Possibly, it's never technically, chemically inert until days after death, or maybe even just before complete decomposition...(since we carry many of our decomposers with us)...obviously, though, one can't come back from that... but it is about levels.... and chemical reactions....
why can people remember near death experiences and not recall the elements of a car crash, or other physically traumatic situation where the person is never declared dead?( - and obviously doesn't have severe brain damage) Or why do other traumatic situations totally get "burned" into the conscious mind.... ? Why are there "ghost" limb sensations? (amputees often feel like their amputated limb is actually still there and sending sensory information to their brains)... Human memory is very complicated, and spread out almost over the entire brain.. There is so much we don't know!
Joined: Aug 04, 2004 Posts: 3709 Location: Houston Texas area
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:39 am Post subject:
Give me some time to digest this and I will comment. _________________ Based on the condition that you are incapable of moving at a high velocity with large animals of the canine species, then you shall be required to remain in a location that is in the general vicinity of the front door of your domicile.
Joined: Aug 04, 2004 Posts: 3709 Location: Houston Texas area
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:47 pm Post subject:
I have a problem with energy being destroyed. One of the basic principles of physics is that energy cannot be created or destroyed only changed. Energy can be changed in several ways, It can become a different form of energy (Heat changed to electricity, Sound into light…), It can become matter (The spontaneous decay of a gamma ray into a Proton/Electron pair), or it can become trapped (Inside of the event horizon of a black hole). I do not believe that this will change because if the energy of the soul can be created or destroyed then it is dependent on something to exist because it can become consumed. The encapsulated energies may well exist and be as of yet undetectable, but I do believe they are a form of energy bound by the same general laws of physics. There is however a problem with the Laws of physics, this problem is they are very dependant on scale. The laws of physics on a sub atomic scale are much different than the laws on a normal matter scale, and the newest set of laws, the Macroscale laws are even different yet. In basis we as scientists and people still do not fully understand the very principles that allow us to exist.
Ah Electricity what a shocking thing to bring up. Electricity is a catch all phrase for several different forms of energy flow. Yes the body works on electricity and it even generates its own using the conversion of chemical energy into electrical. The bodies bioelectricity acts very different from the electricity that runs through your house wire though. For one thing the human body is all conductive and yet the bioelectricity remains in its prescribed little channels and doesn’t jump to adjacent channels. In the world of normal electricity this is the equivalent of never having any of the wire insulated and all the wires bundled together (Don’t try this you will end up dead or worse) and things still working. And yet if you take the bioelectricity out of the body and conduct it through normal wires it acts just like normal electricity, but the reverse is not true normal electricity cannot be injected into a nerve channel and have it stay in that nerve channel only.
The EMF field of the body is very small, and takes very specialized equipment to measure it accurately. This field is the results of the bioelectricity that runs the body and is a side effect not the main show. The bodies “batteries” cease to function at death not just reverse polarity, if the “batteries” reversed then occasionally there would be a person whose body was adapted to that reversal and in effect they would be immortal. Think about it this way it is possible to build a circuit that will work no matter which way you put in the battery. This can be done very simple by adding a couple of blocking diodes. The human body has nerves these nerves conduct there little bursts with a purpose much like a diode does. If the source of the energy reverses then the nerves would just stop the conduction in on direction and open up in the other. The only way to stop that would be to take the battery out not reverse it.
The alleged weight difference is a myth, this was based on an experiment conducted in the early 1900s or late 1800s that was never repeated and had very little scientific control. I would be interested if any body can find a paper on a later experiment that confirmed the finding. The problem with this theory is that if the soul is only energy than the weight of it would be absolutely miniscule. We are talking about its combined weight being less than the weight of a single atom. This weight when measured against the body would be lost in the natural weight shift of the human body. Remember no mater how still you lay the human body is always in motion while you are alive, your heart is beating and your lungs are breathing. This will cause your weight to fluctuate a small amount all of the time, then when death occurs the body stops the fluctuation. Now how do you measure an exact weight for the human body and then determine after death it weighs 1 atomic mass less. All possible solutions to the problem involve intentionally causing the death of the person, and murder is not a sound scientific principle.
An interesting analogy about the brain which by the way is actually right, not wrong. The brain is a Bioelectrically dependant recorder, and if you unplug it from the body it does stop working. However there are some more complicated things going on to like a crash circuit the brain not only stops functioning but its systems collapse and it will never function again if it is unplugged. And no the brain is not a sense gatherer it is the central processing unit. It collates, interprets and stores the data that are gathered by the senses. The senses would be useless without the brain but the brain is not useless without the senses. I have spent time in a sensory deprivation tank and this was a very interesting experience. When alone in the dark and listening only to the sounds of individual air molecules striking your eardrum, it is very easy to think very clearly. I would recommend to anybody to try it at least once. The problem with saying the brain is not the sense gatherer is that that is also a little off, That is like saying that the radio is unimportant because it doesn’t gather the signal what you really need is an antenna. Yes without an antenna a radio is going to get mostly static but, The radio still works it just doesn’t have any input. Without a radio an antenna is just a metal stick.
Ah here is a good theological question, what is the exact time of death, is it when the last cell in the body ceases to function? Is it when the last beat of the heart happens? Could it be when the brain stops conducting bioelectrical information? Or possibly it is when the soul actually separates from the body. Let’s look at the problems with the different times. First when does the last cell stop functioning? It stops days after the body is in the ground usually. Many of the low maintenance cells can go on for months after we are buried. Endodermic skin cells get a lot of there oxygen through the pours and therefore don’t need the lungs to breath to live, they also can go without nutrients for long periods of time because they store energy just like any other cell. The last beat of the heart? Well many people have lived longer than their own heart and many people have lived through the stopping of their heart (Ask my dad about a heart attack) so apparently the heart is just a muscle and like so many other parts of the body is essential but not the determining factor. When the soul leaves the body? OK this is probably the best determiner, however many people who astral travel will tell you that your soul can leave the body and not die. Also there is the little problem of asking how do we determine this, how do we know when the soul leaves the body? That one just leaves to damn many questions. So lets look at the brain. Without the brain nothing else in the body knows what to do. Without the brain the lungs don’t breath, the heart doesn’t beat and the feat don’t stink. Without the brain we cannot live and love and dream of better things. We cannot write or read. We cannot wax poetic. When does the brain stop functioning? When it stops conducting bioelectricity. How do we know when this happens? When our EEG machines quit measuring the conduction of Bioelectricity. How do they do this? The measure the direct flow of bioelectricity at the surface of the skin in very specific locations and filter out the bodies background noise, they do not detect the EMF of the body. The reason we had dead ringers (People who rang the bells after being buried) was that we did not understand that the brain was the center of our being; we thought the heart was and if they could not detect a heart beat by listening to the chest than you must be dead. Yes doctors who were going deaf pronounced a lot of people dead that were still talking to them.
There is a problem with this the only nerves that can store information are located in the brain. So the impressions could not back up and be stored in your fingers. Plus the brain is designed to handle input at a certain rate, If you were to dump five minutes of data on the brain all at once you would be trying to revive them again because the brain would go into rapid sensory overload and shut down. Plus as far as I know nobody has ever been revived after brain death, heart death yes but not brain death, I have heard of bodies outliving the brain but not brains coming back from the dead. I would like to see some medical papers on this if someone knows of a case.
OK lets see inert this is an interesting word. When is the body Chemically inert? Well Cave men are still not chemically inert, and the dinosaurs are still not chemically inert. You know I do believe the human body is never actually chemically inert. The chemicals are released into the soil and are then are picked up by plants and are returned to the life cycle. There is a problem with this though, the current propensity is to bury people in air tight coffins, these stop the organic mater from being recycled. That mater is lost to us and will not be returned.
So what does chemically inert mean? A chemical is inert when its outer covalent shell is full, Hydrogen is no inert it has 1 electron in its outer covalent shell and that shell can have 2 electrons (The first shell) Helium is inert because it only has the first shell and has 2 electrons in it. What this means is that hydrogen can combine with other chemicals 2 hydrogen combined with one helium make Dihydrous-Oxide, Helium on the other hand does not normally combine with other chemicals because its outer shell is full.
So how about the other meaning to inert? Something is inert when it quits moving. When does the human body quit moving? That is hard to say the human body quits moving slowly as cellular degeneration sets in, well for women anyway. The mans body stops moving around the time football comes on.
Good question. The human brain is a remarkable thing but it has some very big flaws, one of them is a thing called sensory overload. When the human brain starts trying to process to much data it doesn’t have time to store any of it. So in the midst of a car crash we process lots and lots of data, but the brain doesn’t store it so afterwards we don’t remember what happen. Sometime the brain manages to store bits and pieces of the data, but in a hurry it just jumbles images up that is why some people remember seeing a smiling dog or a flying pig during their car crashes. The extra image comes from the imagination and is just mixed in with the facts because the brain is working its little but off and makes a mistake. Why can some people remember out of body experiences? Hmmm… This is not really known, but then science does not even except out of body experiences as real yet. So I cannot give you a good explanation. But I can give you some educated guesses and theories. I think the human brain has many more senses than we know of, I know of several that are scientific fact that are not common knowledge; a good example is the bodies knowledge of position. The brain is aware of where your hands are even when you don’t look. It knows this because it senses them. I think there are others still that are all now lumped in the science refuses to admit them category; these are remote viewing and other psychic abilities. Now if we all can remote view (Clairvoyance) then is it not possible that we actually did not leave our body but turned this sense on in an attempt to protect ourselves? The brain is a survival driven organ, if it thinks it is in danger it will do anything in its power to survive. This has been shown by the brain pumping so much adrenalin into the body that feats of superhuman strength have occurred and the mother who rescued her baby from a burning car by reaching into the flames and ignoring the pain long enough to free the baby.
You are right there is a lot we don’t know about how memory works but we also know a lot about how memory does work we also know that the brain has very limited capacity. Did you know that as we age the brain dumps memories that are not important to us in favor of new experiences? Did you know that the brains memory can be reset and wiped clean?
Now oddly enough I imagine everybody wishes I would go away by now so I will end this writing with one little thought; If the body is absolutely controlled by the brain, then how can a soul remember anything? And if the soul is actually the seat of memory, then what does the brain do? I am a firm believer in ghosts some of you have read my journal postings on this website and some haven’t but lets just say that I am deeply seated in my belief that ghost do exist. Do not think of my post as disbelieving think of it as an attempt to explain how things work. I value all thoughts and theories and will happily debate them with you.
“If we shadows have offended,
Think but this, and all is mended,
That you have but slumber'd here
While these visions did appear.
And this weak and idle theme,
No more yielding but a dream,
Gentles, do not reprehend:
if you pardon, we will mend:
And, as I am an honest Puck,
If we have unearned luck
Now to 'scape the serpent's tongue,
We will make amends ere long;
Else the Puck a liar call;
So, good night unto you all.
Give me your hands, if we be friends,
And Robin shall restore amends.” – William Shakespeare “Midsummer Night's Dream”
Thanx
Sean _________________ Based on the condition that you are incapable of moving at a high velocity with large animals of the canine species, then you shall be required to remain in a location that is in the general vicinity of the front door of your domicile.
Joined: Aug 04, 2004 Posts: 3709 Location: Houston Texas area
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:48 pm Post subject:
YW _________________ Based on the condition that you are incapable of moving at a high velocity with large animals of the canine species, then you shall be required to remain in a location that is in the general vicinity of the front door of your domicile.
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 329 Location: Denver, CO
Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:03 am Post subject:
Wow, that's a lot of science. My specialty is biology and chemistry, not so much physics. Though I am studying Biophysics. Maybe I should read up on the physics end of things. Well, I don't really have anything to add that hasn't been already said, I just wanted to express my appreciation for this scientific debate. Thanks and keep up the good work. I think I'm going to head back to the library and read up on physics and thermodynamics...........
Joined: Aug 04, 2004 Posts: 3709 Location: Houston Texas area
Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:00 pm Post subject:
_________________ Based on the condition that you are incapable of moving at a high velocity with large animals of the canine species, then you shall be required to remain in a location that is in the general vicinity of the front door of your domicile.
Joined: May 07, 2005 Posts: 44 Location: North Carolina
Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:52 pm Post subject:
Quote:
For one thing the human body is all conductive and yet the bioelectricity remains in its prescribed little channels and doesn’t jump to adjacent channels. In the world of normal electricity this is the equivalent of never having any of the wire insulated and all the wires bundled together (Don’t try this you will end up dead or worse) and things still working. And yet if you take the bioelectricity out of the body and conduct it through normal wires it acts just like normal electricity, but the reverse is not true normal electricity cannot be injected into a nerve channel and have it stay in that nerve channel only.
Wackywizjr! I like that a lot! I had not thought of it that way.
Quote:
The alleged weight difference is a myth, this was based on an experiment conducted in the early 1900s or late 1800s that was never repeated and had very little scientific control. I would be interested if any body can find a paper on a later experiment that confirmed the finding.
I’ve never seen anything confirming this either. I do remember reading that the doctor couldn’t get that many living humans that he could weigh as they died. So he went through many dogs. The SPCA didn’t exist at the time.
Quote:
many people who astral travel will tell you that your soul can leave the body and not die.
I’ve heard some say that too, but I don’t believe it’s true. I believe the soul is merely “attached” to the body. Some religions call it a silver cord. My spiritual path calls the cord … the “mind force.” It isn’t completely physical or spiritual, but somewhere in between. And it interfaces between the soul and the sympathetic nervous system.
I know this sounds pretty far out for most people, but I believe that when the soul detaches, the body dies. It takes some organs longer to die (not be viable for transplant), but once the soul detaches it’s freed from the body.
Quote:
the current propensity is to bury people in air tight coffins, these stop the organic mater from being recycled. That mater is lost to us and will not be returned.
About the only cultures that embalm and entomb their dead are Christians and ancient Egyptians. Have you ever met a Jewish undertaker? Ever seen a Native American funeral parlor? a Zoroastrian mausoleum? Hehe
Quote:
I think the human brain has many more senses than we know of,
I believe that the soul has senses of its own. We don’t realize how much data is not even stored in the brain. I know… that’s a radical statement. Neuroscientists are busy trying to find the source of our consciousness. I believe its source is the soul. Psychic abilities … I believe are a function of the soul.
Quote:
how can a soul remember anything? And if the soul is actually the seat of memory, then what does the brain do?
I believe that the soul is the seat of memory, consciousness, imagination, and thought. As for the brain, I agree with what you said at the beginning of this post.
Quote:
The brain is a Bioelectrically dependant recorder,
_________________ She asked if aborted and miscarried babies could return as ghosts.
He answered, “Yes, magnificent ones!”
Joined: Aug 04, 2004 Posts: 3709 Location: Houston Texas area
Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:53 pm Post subject:
Thanx;
The Ghosties are the work of Ghostgeek, Myself and PRG.
Thanx RobinRenee;
Alot of that post was written over the course of a day and some of the thought processes got a little jumbled. _________________ Based on the condition that you are incapable of moving at a high velocity with large animals of the canine species, then you shall be required to remain in a location that is in the general vicinity of the front door of your domicile.
Okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate then.
I don't think this is nearly as complicated as it is being imagined.
The brain produces about ten watts of electricity.
When the body begins to die, the respiration ceases. Fuel stops being delivered to the brain cells. Electrical function in the brain eventually ceases.
As a living brain functions, the electricity it produces dissipates- it isn't collected into a battery. There isn't a big storehouse of energy sitting there that need to be accounted for.
As for exactly when death occurs, spiritualists say it is when the silver cord breaks that connects the spirit to the body.
Medical science says it is when brain activity ceases. I think that is a good yardstick. At that point the brain is no longer functioning. If it actually does still host a spirit or soul, the dead brain is useless to it- like a broken television that can't turn the signal into a picture.
If the soul still resides in the body after brain function ceases, I wouldn't think it would be ethical to keep it trapped in a non-functioning shell by means of life support equipment. But that's a different discussion... _________________ I'm the quiet neighbor with a big freezer
Joined: Aug 04, 2004 Posts: 3709 Location: Houston Texas area
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:26 pm Post subject:
While anything can be simplified into a nutshell nothing in life is actually simple.
Thanx
Sean _________________ Based on the condition that you are incapable of moving at a high velocity with large animals of the canine species, then you shall be required to remain in a location that is in the general vicinity of the front door of your domicile.
Come now, Sean, the best things in life are simple.
2+2=4, but you can express the same thing in a far more complicated formula if you prefer.
But to get back to the topic of the thread...
Geek invokes the first law of thermodynamics to support the survival of the spirit.
But what of the second law?
Hmmm... there's something in there involving entropy...
Consider this: I could easily nudge this coffee cup that is next to me off the table and it will fall and break into pieces. But I have never seen the pieces of a broken cup reassemble on the table.
Stephen Hawking once wrote: "The explanation that is usually given as to why we don't see broken cups gathering themselves together off the floor and jumping back onto the table is that it is forbidden by the second law of thermodynamics. This says that in any closed system disorder, or entropy, always increases with time....An intact cup on the table is a state of high order, but a broken cup on the floor is a disordered state. One can go readily from the cup on the table in the past to the broken cup on the floor in the future, but not the other way around."
To get to the point now...
Many people find that survival lends meaning to life where there otherwise appears to be none.
The human mind strives for order. If it can't create order, it will produce the illusion of it in order to survive.
That quest for order, however, goes against the nature of the universe. The universe favors disorder like a rogue casino favors profits.
Perhaps we seek order, reason and meaning where none exist... _________________ I'm the quiet neighbor with a big freezer
Joined: May 07, 2005 Posts: 44 Location: North Carolina
Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:21 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Lee66: If the soul still resides in the body after brain function ceases, I wouldn't think it would be ethical to keep it trapped in a non-functioning shell by means of life support equipment. But that's a different discussion...
What if during that time, the soul was free to travel? Aren’t they? And to the soul space/time doesn’t apply, does it?
By the way, I've left instructions that I want to be unplugged. I'm not advocating extending physical life with machines. Just don't think the soul is trapped inside an unconscious brain.
Quote:
Stephen Hawking once wrote: "The explanation that is usually given as to why we don't see broken cups gathering themselves together off the floor … One can go readily from the cup on the table in the past to the broken cup on the floor in the future, but not the other way around."
Consider the DNA in homo sapiens 60,000 years ago. Is it a closed system? And has the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics applied? Is our DNA today more disordered than it was 60,000 years ago?
I like to be a devil’s advocate too? _________________ She asked if aborted and miscarried babies could return as ghosts.
He answered, “Yes, magnificent ones!”
What if during that time, the soul was free to travel? Aren’t they?
I honestly don't know. Are they? I have read accounts of people waking after years of being in a coma but I don't recall them mentioning anything about having an OBE. Then again, I haven't researched the subject.
As for the DNA question, in truth I don't think you can consider Earth, as a biosphere, a closed system. The sun provides a steady stream of energy into the sysem. If that energy were removed, all life would cease to exist. _________________ I'm the quiet neighbor with a big freezer
Joined: Aug 05, 2004 Posts: 203 Location: Lawrenceville, GA
Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:37 pm Post subject:
Nothing, then, could be considered a closed system if we use that line of thinking. The entire state of the universe today is propped upon the sequence of events that preceded it. The contents and indeed existence of our own little life giving thermo-nuclear reaction would not exist if not for the death and scattering of millions of less dense suns before it producing it's heavier elements.
Where does a system become closed then? We were all part of one singularity at one point and nothing ever really separated despite getting more distant in space-time. _________________ Show us your Orbs!!!
Joined: Aug 04, 2004 Posts: 3709 Location: Houston Texas area
Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:16 pm Post subject:
Lee66 wrote:
Come now, Sean, the best things in life are simple.
2+2=4, but you can express the same thing in a far more complicated formula if you prefer.
If this is so simple why is 2+2=4? _________________ Based on the condition that you are incapable of moving at a high velocity with large animals of the canine species, then you shall be required to remain in a location that is in the general vicinity of the front door of your domicile.
okay.. i've partially digested this... and think that........................................................................
I'm considering the possibility that the brain doesn't have extra senses, but the senses we have are much stronger, deeper, intense, and work together to a far greater level than we, as of yet, know. Like our reflexes... or the autonmic nervous system... which monitors the conditions of the internal environment. I think the brain knows way more than it lets on.. but one doesn't need to go to extra senses... we don't even fully understand the ones we got... let alone have conscious control over it... Tibetan monks excluded...
And science does account for proprioception. It's in the rehab section... body kinesthetics and stuff... I was studying to be a massage therapist.... but it was too hard, and emotional...yeah, go ahead... laugh... she failed massage school!!
but, people kept TOUCHING me!! Aaaargghh!
the anatomy and physiology and kinesthetics and working full time while having a nervous break down, just killed me...
Life goes on...
Anyway,
>>>In the world of normal electricity this is the equivalent of never having any of the wire insulated and all the wires bundled together (Don’t try this you will end up dead or worse) and things still working
The body's neurons have insulation, which also helps conduct electrical impulses. It's called myelin. This allows the cells to be shielded, while bundled together...When this wears off it can be extremely painful. Ask anyone with MS.
okay, that's all I have... too much for my little brain..
Joined: May 07, 2005 Posts: 44 Location: North Carolina
Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:25 am Post subject:
Quote:
parafoto: The body's neurons have insulation, which also helps conduct electrical impulses. It's called myelin. This allows the cells to be shielded, while bundled together...When this wears off it can be extremely painful. Ask anyone with MS.
You're absolutely right. Thanks for reminding me.
I looked at your website. Your photography is extraordinary. _________________ She asked if aborted and miscarried babies could return as ghosts.
He answered, “Yes, magnificent ones!”
Joined: May 07, 2005 Posts: 44 Location: North Carolina
Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:39 am Post subject:
Quote:
Lee66: if my reasoning doesn't appeal to you, we'll just wait right here until the sun expends its fuel. Entropy will eventually win.
It's a cycle, darlin'. Creation and entropy .... build and destroy ... They're both good, and they depend on each other. They will both continue until the end which has no ending... _________________ She asked if aborted and miscarried babies could return as ghosts.
He answered, “Yes, magnificent ones!”
Joined: Aug 05, 2004 Posts: 203 Location: Lawrenceville, GA
Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:46 am Post subject:
Lee66 wrote:
Alright Loki, if my reasoning doesn't appeal to you, we'll just wait right here until the sun expends its fuel. Entropy will eventually win.
And when it goes Nova it will scatter atoms of higher density than it had before which will contribute to the overall complexity of matter in the universe. One could point to that and say that, arguably, it is increasing the physical order of the universe.
No matter - the core issue here is that we have backed off the apparent violation of thermodynamic entropy and replaced it with an argument of logical entropy. My point was stated to show that, as one form of entropy increases (heat) another decreases (physical complexity). The basic gist of Hawking's stateme
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I bet you're waiting on baited breath... aren't ya! 
