Joined: Jan 07, 2005 Posts: 27 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 7:10 pm Post subject: Ghosts and Thermodynamics
First though, a bit about myself. I’m a scientist. In less than a month I’ll have a BS in Biology. I also have a strong focus in chemistry (1 class shy of a BA in chem). I’ll be going on to grad school after a year off to earn my PhD in Immunology. My career will consist mostly of me in working in a lab (a true sicence nerd). To many, this makes me the enemy, as if paranormal and science are mutually exclusive. Let me assure you that I’m on your side. One day we may have reasons behind everything we now know as paranormal, and science will be there to verify it.
But this post isn’t about how science is actually on your side, it is about a specific concept in science I’ve heard too many times in an attempt to explain the existence of an afterlife. Specifically, I hear people bring the first law of thermodynamics to the defense of ghosts. This law states that “energy can neither be created, nor destroyed.” So the typical defense is that energy in our bodies has to go somewhere when we die, and that is the essence of a ghost. I’m writing to explain why you should NOT use this argument. If you do use it, anyone with in depth knowledge of thermodynamics will immediately call you on it, and then probably dismiss anything else you have to say.
It is absolutely correct that the energy in your body is not destroyed when you die. But you have to understand what is meant by “energy.” Starting from the bottom up, we are all made of matter. Each atom is in essence, energy. Each bond formed between atoms is a sharing or stabilization of energies. This (chemical energy) is biggest form of energy in our bodies (lipids, carbohydrates, DNA, protein, etc). The other form is thermal energy. Metabolism (which shifts around bonds between atoms to create useful molecules) is not 100% perfect. It’s like a car engine. Not all the gasoline is converted into energy used by the engine. Some of it escapes as heat.
So what happens when we die? Thermal energy is conducted into matter around the body. This is like a hot cup of coffee at room temperature. We notice the coffee cools off and reaches the same temperature as the environoment around it. We cannot notice that the room heats up (very, very slightly) as the energy from the coffee is spread around the room. As for Chemical energy, it is slowly dispersed as we decompose. Bacteria utilize molecules from our body in their own existence. Water (a huge percentage of us) evaporates, taking its energy with it. In all, the matter (energy) that we were made of still exists, just in some other form or at some other location. No energy is destroyed, and it can all be accounted for.
So in all, the argument using our current understanding of thermodynamics to explain the existence of ghosts is fatally flawed (maybe one day thermodynamics will be able to explain ghosts, but today it cannot). Again, I’m not saying this means they don’t exist. Science is always expanding. What we can’t explain today may be solved tomorrow. Science cannot explain or explain away phenomena all over the world. Physicists are still searching for the smallest parts of atoms as well as looking for where the majority of matter in the universe actually is (gravity tells us there is way more matter in the universe then we can see; physicists just don’t know where it is). When mysteries fundamental to basic understanding of matter and the universe still exist, it’s no wonder we cannot come to a conclusion on the existence of an afterlife. One day though the science will catch up with what many of us already intuitively know. So don’t be so quick to dismiss scientists who argue your points. A real scientist will prove true or false what he/she can, but be open to what can not yet be explained.
Joined: Aug 04, 2004 Posts: 3709 Location: Houston Texas area
Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject:
/me Rubs hands together and slowly reaches for the keyboard...
Lets get ready to rumble.
geek mode about to commence, ladies and small children may now be excused.
Okay! IMHO you have made the same mistake right off the bat that all scientists seam to make when approaching a discussion on the paranormal. You assume that the only energy in the body is the chemical energy that is used to run it.
If you take all of the chemicals in the human body and put them together in the exact proportions and amounts. you will get nothing but a vat with 150lbs of chemicals in it. There will be something missing, something key to the chemicals becoming alive.
Now you can call this missing key a soul, or a life force, or even a psionic field, but it is there. When the body dies this energy does not escape as heat, because if that were the case you could not freeze and return to living, once the freezing process was complete then you would have nothing but a pile of chemicals without that vital spark.
At death this energy must be released in some manner if it wasn't then all you would have to do is fix the bad parts and jump start the body.
As is usual the scientific community refuses to acknowledge that there is an energy about a living thing that they do not understand. Science has no better an understanding of what makes something alive then they do of where the missing matter is in the universe.
A further proof of this energy is in the heart cells of the human body. If two heart muscle cells are placed in a nutrient bath they will sit there and beat, each one carrying out its own little tune. But the moment the 2 cells touch they will start beating together. Now these cells have no nerve giving them directions but they still know to instinctively beat together, to synchronize their movements.
This is an exhibition of this energy field at work. to two little fields that cling to those muscle cells and make them alive start working together because on some basic level they know together is survival.
More more this is fun. _________________ Based on the condition that you are incapable of moving at a high velocity with large animals of the canine species, then you shall be required to remain in a location that is in the general vicinity of the front door of your domicile.
Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 1893 Location: Georgia
Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 9:57 pm Post subject:
Firstly, to Ghost Hounds "Wheelz"! I for one look forward to this debate.
I want you to know your opinions and point of view are just as important as anyone else’s - even if they don't agree with the "status quo" of this site. I go out of my way to make sure discussions here are held in an adult-like manner and you can rest assured that personal attacks and flame wars (by ANY side of this or any other debate) are not tolerated here. Just promise to play nice with us and I promise to make the Hounds heel!
To start, I'm going to move this thread to the "DEBATE" forum, and I'll post my $.02 on this shortly after...
[/code] _________________ Patrick Burns
Founder and Director, Ghost Hounds
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
Joined: Jan 07, 2005 Posts: 27 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 11:29 pm Post subject:
First, nice post. You bring up some excellent points. I need to clarify on some things though, from your post and my previous post.
With the heart cells, they begin to beat in together when placed next to each other because of cellular communication. These cells have "gap junctions", special openings to connect to one another. Alone, they contract according to their own timer, but together, gap junctions and other connections bring them into synchronization. It's actually really cool that if you took cells from one organ, lets say a kidney, and cells from another organ, lets say a liver, then spun them to separate them from each other. Then place all the cells mixed together in a dish, the kidney cells will find and bind other kidney cells, while the liver cells find and bind other liver cells. In the case of the cardiac muscle, the depolarization (electric impulse causing contraction) flows through any connected cells bringing them into synchronization.
As for putting the chemicals that make up the body into exact proportions, and not having them be alive, this is a matter of development. We never start as a group of random chemicals that some force jump starts into life. Developmental Biology was a pain to sit through, but provides great insight into how organization of a single cell can begin the development of beings as complex as us.
I should've been clearer when speaking about thermal energy release at death. Only the heat that was present in our body escapes, and comes into equilibrium with the surrounding temp. We obviously would not freeze because at a certain point our temperature equals the outside temperature. If we got any colder, the matter in our body would then absorb energy from the surrouding environment. Equilibrium keeps us at the same temp.
Thank you so much for bringing up the other energy though. Chemical energy and thermal energy are the components of the laws of thermodynamics. What science hasn't found is the other energy. I love and practice Tai Chi. No where can science explain "chi" and some effects seen by it. This was the example I had in mind when I said science cannot explain some of these things and thus cannot prove that there are no ghosts. Our current understanding of thermodynamics in this case is only chemical and thermal energy. So using thermodynamics is a lost cause to convince science the way the law stands. But, that other "energy" is different in nature, and may not be subject to the same laws. I agree completely with you here. Biological processes may even be influenced by this energy, as seen in the health and mental imporvements of practicing tai chi. I have panic disorder, which also hurts my sleep pattern. Tai chi, more then medication brings me into balance.
Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 1893 Location: Georgia
Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 11:59 pm Post subject: Re: Ghosts and Thermodynamics
While you may believe citing the first law of thermal dynamics is a poor argument for ghosts, I believe the common skeptics viewpoint that the “life energy” is simply released as thermal energy and nothing more at the moment of death is more so flawed.
For one thing, your body is *always* radiating heat while alive. This isn’t a byproduct of death - it’s a byproduct of life; of your metabolism. At the moment of death, metabolic activity ceases and the body slowly cools to the ambient temperature of its surroundings. This isn’t any “life force” or "soul" escaping, rather it is the heat that the body itself has absorbed from its own metabolic activity (while alive) radiating out – just as your body is doing now.
You are correct when you say that a large amount of energy escapes from the body as heat – it does. Not just in death, but in every living moment we are here. If this heat represents the same energy some of us believe account for the "soul", then is the "soul" constantly escaping from our bodies the moment life begins until it ends?
The scientist who scoffs at the thermodynamic support of an afterlife is (ironically) not looking at it from a logical perspective in my opinion. That argument insinuates that our intelligence and personality is released as nothing more than “dumb” heat in post mortem, and that alone leads to an entirely different argument – one that is philosophical "How can simple heat such as the heat from a candle flame think, feel, manipulate its environment... etc..."
However, going back to your argument - if this “life force” "soul" or what ever one wishes to call it were to simply escape as heat in post mortem, then there should be a net increase in body temperature at the moment of death. In some instances such as heat stroke, severe infections and hemorrhaging) the body temperature does increase, but according to my research, these are exceptions and not the norm.
Here is a good forensic description of “postmortem changes and time of death”
Of particular interest to this thread is the section 1. ALGOR MORTIS (BODY COOLING) _________________ Patrick Burns
Founder and Director, Ghost Hounds
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
Joined: Jan 07, 2005 Posts: 27 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 1:22 am Post subject:
Right on target with your post GG. Modern thermodynamics does not support evidence for energy that survives and goes somewhere else. But this alone does not mean there isn't some form of "energy" that does exist and does survive bodily death. In my posts I was simply stating that thermal and chemical energy are the only forms the laws of thermodynamics take into account. These forms of energy are accounted for after death, hence are a poor argument for survival of death. Yes, we are constantly radiating heat throughout our life. I was just accounting for where that last bit of thermal energy goes to be thorough into how chemical and thermal energy are accounted for in death.
It is not this heat that is any part of our intelligence. Simple behaviors can be traced back, even to bacteria (we share certain cell receptors, almost exactly the same, but with different end results for us vs. bacteria). Our memory is linked to chemical energy in this case. Alzheimers basically destroys the structure of neurons in the brain. From this we lose memory, function, etc. This same chemical energy is dispersed in the process of death and decomposition as signals cease, cells break down, and our cells reach a state of zero free energy. Thermodynamics ends here though. Turn to Hans Holzer's openging remarks in "Ghosts". With respect to death, "the two components ( physical body and soul) are separated again and go in different directions. The body, deprived of its operating force, is nothing more than a shell and subect to ordinary laws (thermodynamics!) affecting matter." (P 14) Holzer goes on to explain however it is the non-physical aspect or soul that survives. The energy we know (chemical and thermal) is physical and exists in a physical dimension. It is this non-physical energy or soul that survives in tact. I believe it is also Holzer that theorizes that the soul (non-physical) needs the body (physical matter) to connect between the two realms. This would also account for why destruction of the physical brain, as in alzheimers, changes memory and personality, etc. Destroy the part of the brain that allows the soul to "speak" or to retain "memory" means the soul cannot express speech or memory in the physical dimension. So to end this rant, I again stress that thermodynamics seems to fail for explaining the soul, and should not be used to defend the existence of ghosts. However, this in no way means there is no soul, and that the soul is not an intricate part of the body.
Joined: Jan 07, 2005 Posts: 27 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 1:35 am Post subject:
I forgot one important thing in my last post. It is a very powerful piece of evidence for life after death in the face of science. It is an account of a woman's experience during brain surgery. Normally, skeptics dismiss near death experiences as "all in the mind." However, this woman's surgery had a period where the brain was essentially "dead" Clinically, zero EEG, no brain activity as we can measure it today. No neurons were firing. However, she had details of comments made by nurses and doctors, as well as a description of part of the procedure that was going on at the time of zero EEG. This is medically impossible.
Her brain had zero activity, yet she could remember. Obviously science is missing some kind of energy that is going on. Not quite the same arguement as the posts above, but a zero EEG is the medical definition of death. Something exists, and that has consciousness different from the chemical energy biological processes we understand.
Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 1893 Location: Georgia
Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 2:07 am Post subject:
I'm happy to see you cited Holzer in your post. I'm a huge fan of his theories.
wheelz wrote:
The energy we know (chemical and thermal) is physical and exists in a physical dimension. It is this non-physical energy or soul that survives in tact.
Right, but ENERGY is the operative word here. Makes no difference if its thermal energy or some other form of energy on an entirely different plane (Quantum?). The first law of thermodynamics is supposed to apply to ALL energy and matter - its never "created nor destroyed", merely converted into another form. Since we agree that this "soul" must contain energy, it too should be bound by this law. Thus, death is not the end of this energy within, but merely a "change of clothes". By definition this energy must survive in some form. Now what form that might BE is the real question.
Quote:
I forgot one important thing in my last post. It is a very powerful piece of evidence for life after death in the face of science. It is an account of a woman's experience during brain surgery. Normally, skeptics dismiss near death experiences as "all in the mind." However, this woman's surgery had a period where the brain was essentially "dead" Clinically, zero EEG, no brain activity as we can measure it today. No neurons were firing. However, she had details of comments made by nurses and doctors, as well as a description of part of the procedure that was going on at the time of zero EEG. This is medically impossible.
Her brain had zero activity, yet she could remember. Obviously science is missing some kind of energy that is going on. Not quite the same arguement as the posts above, but a zero EEG is the medical definition of death. Something exists, and that has consciousness different from the chemical energy biological processes we understand.
-Wheelz
There are of course numerous cases similar to this one. The skepic says "she wasn't entirely dead then - the EEG was flawed or brain activity was a such a low frequency as to be indetectable".
*sigh* ANYTHING but an "afterlife". It just can't be so, ya know?
And so the debate rages on...
Thanks again for this thread - from a scientist no less! Encouraging when ever I read from one who accepts the and even embraces all possibilities. _________________ Patrick Burns
Founder and Director, Ghost Hounds
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
Joined: Aug 04, 2004 Posts: 3709 Location: Houston Texas area
Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 5:51 am Post subject:
Here here!
Longer geekier post to follow... _________________ Based on the condition that you are incapable of moving at a high velocity with large animals of the canine species, then you shall be required to remain in a location that is in the general vicinity of the front door of your domicile.
Joined: Feb 08, 2004 Posts: 965 Location: Lawrenceville
Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 6:47 am Post subject:
Welcome Wheelz! Let me tell you how excited I am to have you here! I love a good intelligent debate! The 3 of you speaking on tis topic are doing an awesome job. I may not be able to contribute on the same level but, I am reading and learning. I've been waiting for a great topic and discussion like this to start, its been a little while.
That being said, Im heading back to my seat in the rear of the auditorium to continue listening. BTW, please speak up.
Babs _________________ Only a mountain has lived long enough to listen objectively to the howl of a wolf. -Aldo Leopold
Joined: Aug 04, 2004 Posts: 3709 Location: Houston Texas area
Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 7:12 am Post subject:
First let me say I never intend to make any kind of attack on any member here. (Plus if I do attack someone they will know it. I will send my Ghostie minions to there house to hide there keys. Muahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!)
First things first.
[Geek mode about to commence, Small woodland creatures must be removed from the auditorium by the end of this paragraph. The management is not responsible for lost or stolen articles. Thank you.]
Now as to the first law of Thermodynamics, This is a borrowed law only on loan to the Thermodynamics department. This law is originally brought to its glorious height in by Einstein’s general theory of relativity.
In nature all energy has 2 possible conclusions. The first is a change of form, Heat to kinetic, chemical to heat, X-rays to heat,... The second possible conclusion is spontaneous decay into matter. ( A good example is that high energy Gamma rays have been observed to spontaneously decay into a Proton , Electron pair.)
This the energy that makes us alive, that ephemeral quality that makes us different from a bowl of chemicals is not just organization, even if science could artificially create a perfect human body they could not make it alive. The body would still be just an inert bunch of chemicals. Even when cloning a creature they must start with a living cell, to inject the DNA pattern into.
The key here is that science does not know what this mechanism of life is, what is this energy, is it an unknown and undetected form. That would seem likely to me because if the soul were to radiate out so it could be detected that would indicate that it loses energy through decay. If a soul can decay then it is not an immortal state, but just another energy reaction.
To illustrate a point, within the event horizon of a black hole, normal physics ceases to function and you reach a point of quantum singularity. This state as of yet is nothing but theory because there is no way to detect what happens there. The soul is very similar in nature since none of its energy actually escapes there is nothing to be detected.
How a soul makes itself detectible is to borrow energy from its surroundings and release it as some form of display. They do not eat but they due borrow energy. A good example of this is cold spots normally associated with haunting and the battery drain experienced in haunted locations. I have a few theories myself on how we could amplify a ghost by giving him more energy to work with. Maybe one day we will get into a debate on these.
[Geek mode has now ended you can bring the squirrels back in.]
Great topic!
And by the way to the hounds. Don't look in the mirror uncle Jack's home... _________________ Based on the condition that you are incapable of moving at a high velocity with large animals of the canine species, then you shall be required to remain in a location that is in the general vicinity of the front door of your domicile.
Joined: Jan 07, 2005 Posts: 27 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 12:19 pm Post subject:
GG- I kept using the word energy for lack of a better term to describe both chemical/thermal and whatever is the makeup of a soul. The chemical and thermal energy are easily accounted for. That other "energy" is different somehow in nature. If we don't know what it is, or anything about it, then it has not been included when the laws of thermodynamics were created. The first law may only account for chemical/thermal type of energy in all of its forms. This "soul energy" may be something entirely different in nature, not bound by the same laws of energy, and elusive to our attempts at detection. Or, as I will mention below, it may be somehow able to interact with chemical/thermal energy, and therefore may eventually be included in thermodynamic laws. But in the present day, no dice.
WW- Absolutely correct on the nature of energy as we know it. It seems a soul's energy would be some undetectable form, and probably able to avoid decay (or at least "feed" on other energy sources). Cold spots during encounters seem to point to a drain in local energy in order for a ghost to manifest itself physically. Again, maybe some manner of "crossing" from non-physical to physical realms. Or this is simply some form we cannot detect, like you mention, that will one day be accounted for in the laws of thermodynamics. This seems possible too, since ghosts (unknown form) can borrow from thermal energy (known and accounted for).
But again with the body. Its impossible to tell what would happen if science could create a cell/organism from scratch in perfect form to see if it would live. My interests in biology are on the molecular level (one of the few students who enjoyed a year each of organic chem and biochem ). It would be impossible to recreate the level of organization, structure, concentration and correct position of every bio-molecule that exists in a cell from scratch. That is one reason it is necessary to use a living cell in cloning (usually an egg cell). The other reason is egg cells are "programmed" to begin development (via their own DNA and gene products inserted into the egg via nearby "nursing" cells). Life is a chemical harmony way too complex to recreate from scratch. Even in the lab, we always to "in vitro" (outside an organism; as in test tube) tests to begin understanding of some protein, enzyme, cell, etc. But the results are always different when we move the tests "in vivo" (inside the organism). If one day we can replicate things atom for atom it would be interesting to see if the replicated cell/organism was alive, or could be "revived." But for now, creating organisms from scratch is science fiction.
Joined: Aug 04, 2004 Posts: 3709 Location: Houston Texas area
Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 1:26 pm Post subject:
You my friend have a very good head on your shoulders make it serve you well. _________________ Based on the condition that you are incapable of moving at a high velocity with large animals of the canine species, then you shall be required to remain in a location that is in the general vicinity of the front door of your domicile.
Joined: Feb 03, 2005 Posts: 1024 Location: Columbia, SC
Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 6:57 pm Post subject:
first off welcome…Now…I know nothing of the technical gibberish all three of you “GUYS” are speaking of, but it is interesting--I am learning the science of it. I do however from personal experience know that the soul does continue. Science may never be able to prove it with all of their machines and great minds but to those of us who believe, that is our science “Belief”
I am not trying to belittle science and by no means any of the 3 of you. I have learned from all of you. Just remember when you get into the “Science” of the energy of the soul remember that love and belief should be included into any equation .
Just my humble opinion now carry on guys--lol _________________ Your loved ones are not gone...They are just harder to see and hear!!!
Joined: Feb 08, 2004 Posts: 965 Location: Lawrenceville
Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:51 pm Post subject:
Quote:I've noticed in this debate as in most of this genre that people seem to toss back and forth like a hot potato,
PaimpontOak-I think what you will find, at least with those involved in this topic, is that there thoughts and theories are not "back and forth like a hot potato" but rather people who enjoy a good debate and discussion and will play both sides of the net. There are many of us who are just venturing into this area and are young in our ideas about ghosts.
Quote:Of all things I've heard so inane, none I think are more vacant in thought than this, "Oh, you must have a very old soul."
The only old souls are those that passed in classical times. Every new corporeal being brings with it a new consciousness, ergo, a new soul.
One thing that frustrates me is someone stating a unprovable statement about how a unprovable belief is inane and vacant in thought. The "prove it to me" statement I like to counteract with "prove it doesn't".
Quote:It is only after birth, when consciousness can question its own existence, is a soul born.
I believe that the soul or spirit energy or etc...exists prior to birth on earth and that it exists as a seperate "entity" from the body. It does not rely on the body but does utilize it.
Quote:Notice we've never seen any senile ghosts.
Two points here...What defines senility? According to the DSM IV there are observable behaviors that must be present for a psychosis diagnosis of any type. So that beiong said, would you not have to interact with a ghost firstly to determine his/her behaviors and whether or not they met the criteria for psychosis?
Secondly...Have you listened to our evps? Some sound like the ramblings of an incoherant senile being...lmao
Quote:If everyone who’s passed in the 200,000 years of mans existence remained a ghost, this planet would be overwhelmed by activity, which it is not. That alone should tell you something.
What it tells me is that not every soul who's body passes decides to stay on in this dimention. My belief that a soul is a seperate entity supports my belief that some souls go on feeling no need to stay.
Quote:It is my firm belief that this is why most entities are young to middle-aged. Even in sudden traumatic death, the consciousness can remain instantly attached to an object, place, or bloodline. It is the energy of consciousness, initially sparked by physical bonding, and developed more intricately over time, that it becomes capable of maintaining some sort of link to this plane of existence.
To me this statement contradicts itself. You speak energy of consciousness developing more intricately over time allowing for a greater likelihood that the conscious can remain instantly attched to....But that is your reason that most ghosts are young to middle aged??? Wouldnt an older person have more intricate bonds thereby increasing the chances that most ghosts would be older???
Quote:Perhaps you were right, Patrick. That could be why camera batteries go dead so quickly. On the other hand, if a house with power running to it is haunted, then according to this observation, that house should be exploding with ethereal force.
Thats would be true if you believe that the ghost has absolutely no control whatsoever in regards to the amount of energy it takes. It would also theorize that the ghost "needs" any and all energy it can possibly get. Like a kid in a candy store...more more more more more. This is what I theorize.... Ghosts are not dumb. Why take more energy than they want or need. For instance..I have 3/4 of a cup of water. I need 1 cup. You have 1 cup. Does it make sence for me to take your entire cup when I only need 1/4 cup more? I can pour your cup into mine but the extra 3/4 cup is just going to spill over and disipate across my counter anyway, so I'll just take 1/4 cup, thank you. Or maybe I want your entire cup but Im to weak to take all of it.
This is all theory. Science should definitely be used in this field but not as an innocent bystander waiting to be proven to. Id like to see science step in and prove to me that my theories are untrue and impossible.
That is the awesomeness of this site. It allows for the give and take of ideas and possiobilities. Open mindedness allows for far greater knowledge. I can not believe that all that there is to know is already known. My experiences prove to me that science is thus far incapable of explaining everything.
Babs _________________ Only a mountain has lived long enough to listen objectively to the howl of a wolf. -Aldo Leopold
Joined: Jan 07, 2005 Posts: 27 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:02 pm Post subject:
Good post Babs. Science never claimed to know everything, and doesn't claim it will ever know everything. If you look at science as a rational and orderly means of discovery, then it doesn't seem so threatening to something unexplained, like the paranormal. However, for legitimacy, the paranormal will eventually need some "hard" science. This will end certain paranormal topics as a debate, and put them into the realm of fact. Until then, you're absolutely correct about the harmful nature of statements that claim truth when all that is there is theory and personal bias. Later.
Joined: Feb 08, 2004 Posts: 965 Location: Lawrenceville
Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:56 pm Post subject:
I agree Wheelz. I am disappointed when the lineup for the day is science vs. paranormal investigation. I also don't agree wIth using the paranormal to prove the paranormal. I find it humorous when people use dousing rods as evidence that paranormal activity is occuring.
We used to have (just noticed we don't now) a thing on the front page that showed when the earths magnetic field was unsettled. We sell EMF meters. Many use IR thermometers. We use what science has made available to us. We need science.
The thought that "if science can't prove it, it does not exist" just bores me. lol The only way, at this time, for us to know is to die and for now I'm happy with theories. lol
Babs _________________ Only a mountain has lived long enough to listen objectively to the howl of a wolf. -Aldo Leopold
Thank you for the response, Babs. I always appreciate a good critique of my view points. I am sorry, though, if I came off sounding as if what I was saying was the end-all. I sometimes do that, but it’s not my intention. To clarify, these were notions I’ve been tossing around for a while, and just thought I’d put them out there to see what someone would have to say.
The one thing I guess I should clear up was my statement regarding attachment to the physical plane. After re-reading it, I suppose it did sound like a contradiction.
If I may… and please keep in mind this is only a notion…
I feel that passage into death and the subsequent meanderings on this plane are due to a sharp intellect, or one that is made acutely aware of the passage in the “sudden death” scenario.
When I say “attachment”, I do not mean it in an avuncular sense, but rather how aware one is of the current environment under any sort of death.
(Here comes the “If-Then” statements.)
If souls are truly created at the onset of sentience, then survival of that sentience after death depends on degree of awareness. The “conscious energy” (which is what I feel is the soul) can remain and survive if the inclining is there, or if a physical obsession in life keeps them there after they’ve passed.
It is in this case that only relatively keen minds can continue without become the background static of the universe. It was this thought which lead me to think about infant deaths, and deaths of the elderly whose mental faculties have broken down.
I hope I’ve cleared it up a bit. Initial descriptions of my thoughts can get a little hazy, so it’s not uncommon for me to have to go back and fix them.
In the end, I almost always like to just go back to the easy viewpoints: Ghosts and energy simply exist… accept it.
Joined: Feb 08, 2004 Posts: 965 Location: Lawrenceville
Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:55 pm Post subject:
Lets assume for a moment that intelligence stays intact...I can't help but think of the severely challenged adults I cared for and how they may handle death. Repitition was critical to maintaining a calm household. These folks relied on the patterns of their days repeating. They were extremely aware of their environment, a small change in the day would prove that. Now, back to the assumption that intellgence remains intact...I would easily believe that their soul may remain out of confusion or the importance they put in their daily tasks. i.e. "can't leave because it's my day to do my laundry". Talk about an example of an obsession minus a keen mind.
Paimpont, I am thoroughly enjoying this topic and am looking forward to reading and debating more with you!
Babs _________________ Only a mountain has lived long enough to listen objectively to the howl of a wolf. -Aldo Leopold
I think in some way, you’ve sort of extended my thoughts to include a broader scope of personality types. Repetition that is required on a daily basis can in some way be an obsession for challenged individuals.
Where I was first referring to a “keen mind”, my thoughts were on people who had a greater hold on a larger reality. But also, a keen mind could refer to the challenged individual who in their obsessive repetition is acutely aware of their world and their environment.
In this case, death would almost certainly have a greater impact on their psyche, perhaps even more so than someone knowing that someday they will die. To us, it’s a change we’re expecting, but still traumatic. To them, it’s the ultimate capsizing of strictly adhered to environment.
I can see how this sort of change would result in ghostly activity. To think, there are stories of those who’ve passed that on a regular basis continue (or attempt to continue) tasks and patterns they were accustomed to in life.
Joined: Aug 04, 2004 Posts: 3709 Location: Houston Texas area
Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:43 am Post subject:
Okay this is still a very interesting topic so let me add part of the equation in that seems to be overlooked right now.
Survival instinct…
When we are young as in infants we do not have a very good if any survival instinct, we are unaware of danger or potential death from our actions. Babies who fall will not place their hands out to catch themselves.
As we mature we learn to reach out and grab things to stop ourselves from getting hurt. And life is good we go through life grabbing onto things as we fall and we find that when we do this we feel no pain.
As we get older though the mind starts to fail and the instincts aren’t as sharp again we start getting hurt as we fall. Eventually if we get old enough or stop losing our grip on reality we lose this survival instinct all together.
No when a person dies their survival instinct is ramped up trying to keep them alive, but what happens when the soul reaches out to grab something instead of the body… At this point an anchor is formed and until the spirit lets go of that anchor they will remain here. Some times they anchor to things they are familiar with, sometimes they anchor to things close by, sometimes they anchor to people.
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to Ghost Hounds "Wheelz"! I for one look forward to this debate.
