Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:51 am Post subject: Interesting Illinois Info
I was scrolling another site ans stumbled onto this link while we were discussing, and or reading about a rather morbid topic reguarding bodies that didn't decompose. (yea groos topic but) I got this link and was curious about what everyone else knew about this story.
I guess it's well known in Illinois, but I'd really like to hear more about it if anyone knows more.
Joined: Feb 08, 2004 Posts: 965 Location: Lawrenceville
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:52 am Post subject:
Mysti- Thanks for that link, was interesting. The picture does look like she is sleeping and not dead for 6 years. I have no idea how that can be. I was wondering what exactly it is that causes a body to decompose. Is it just a lack of blood flow and oxygen that causes decomposition or is being exposed, even slightly, to the elements? What is the exact process in regards to sealing a coffin? How long does it typically take a buried bodies to begin to show the sign of decomposing? I ask these questions but, I'm not really sure I want the answer, lol. In your post you mention that you were discussing bodie's' that don't decompose. Are there others that you know of?
Babs _________________ Only a mountain has lived long enough to listen objectively to the howl of a wolf. -Aldo Leopold
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 329 Location: Denver, CO
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:10 am Post subject:
When organic matter dies, it is decomposed through a cobined effort of bacteria and fungi. These microbes eat the flesh and exrete things like nitrogen, phosphates, and methane gas, which is why bodies usually have a distinct odor to them. All the excrement is recycled into the surrounding soil or water, where it is absorbed by local plant life, which is then comsumed by local animal life, which later dies and begins the chain over again. How long it takes for this process to begin is dependnet on how well the body is embalmed, as well as the local climate. Some processes, like the ones used by the ancient Egyptians, have been able to hold off decomposition for centuries. Bodies in cold climates decompose slower than bodies in warm, humid climates. So, depending on the embalming process used (if any) and the weather conditions, a body could start showing signs of decomposition anywhere between three days to a year. Coffins are sealed in a variety of ways. Besides using nails to hold the lid in place (or maybe even a lock, if you have enough money, some noblemen in England in the 1700s were buried in iron caskets that had a lock on it so that once it was closed, it could never be opened again), people use anything from weather striping around the lid, to pine tar on all the joints. The sealant could also vary depending on cause of death. In some countries, if a person dies of infectious disease, the coffin is wrapped in plastic (like syran wrap), to make sure that no pathogens escape the casket.
As for bodies that haven't yet decomposed, the most famous are probably the Pharoahs of ancient Egypt. And of those King Tut is the most well-known. (FYI, Tut was embalmed in an "excited" state and during WW2 his "tool" was broken off and stolen, Egyptologists believe that thay have found it, but confirmation is pending a DNA test). That just goes to show how good those Egyptians were at embalming, if DNA can still be found in the body after so many centuries they must have been doing something right. OK, I won't take up any more fo your time with this. Tallyho!
Joined: Feb 08, 2004 Posts: 965 Location: Lawrenceville
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:15 am Post subject:
Glad you hopped on board with this one Bebblebrox. Can you explain to me how, scientifically, this is possible. A woman has been dead for 6 years and after exhuming her she shows no signs of decomposition??? Ruling out that she was not treated in the same manor as the pharohs or King Tut ( I did not know that King Tut had been "excited" or that his "tool" had been stolen...although I always thought his name sounded like an oxymoron and had some "envy" issues mixed in).
Babs _________________ Only a mountain has lived long enough to listen objectively to the howl of a wolf. -Aldo Leopold
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 329 Location: Denver, CO
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:28 am Post subject:
Ok, this is kinda tricky. If she had had an autopsy it would be easy to explain. Since the autopsy involves removing all the internal organs, it leaves virtually nothing for bacteria to feed on. But, if the year of death is right, 1921, then most likely there was no autopsy. So what else? Well, the body was buried in Illinois, a state that has a semi-cold climate, I believe. Caskets are placed at least six feet underground, so right around the frost layer. That would keep it cool. Now the casket looked pretty solid, so it was probably well sealed. That keeps out air. So, no food, no air, and no warmth. Bad conditions for microbes. But in the early 1900s bodies were embalmed with 180 proof Kentucky embalming fluid. Basically really bad alcohol. This would have pickled the body, adding a ton of salts to the mix (FYI, NaCl, sodium chloride, is the deadliest poison on the planet, but it is more commonly known as table salt. If you were to ingest in one sitting all the salt you normally eat in one week, it would kill you, almost instantly, by sucking you dry). The salts would have kept the body dry, so no moisture either (the single most important thing to living organisms). Now assuming all this were true, the body would have no way of decomposing. Assuming its all true, of course.
Last edited by Beeblebrox on Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:10 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Feb 08, 2004 Posts: 965 Location: Lawrenceville
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:40 am Post subject:
Thanks Beeblebrox! I embarassingly found that to be really really interesting. I wonder if there has been studies on the rate of decompostion in people buried. Short of those who are exhumed do we really know?
I can't help but visualize that old picture of Michael jacson laying in the glass casket/tube thing. Hmmm, maybe he'd volunteer
Babs _________________ Only a mountain has lived long enough to listen objectively to the howl of a wolf. -Aldo Leopold
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 329 Location: Denver, CO
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:46 am Post subject:
There is a study of decomposition going on in Alabama. It's called the body farm. People volunteer their bodies for research and the guys who run the place stick 'em out in the field the own. Each one is placed with different conditions. Some on the ground, some under, some in the water. Lotsa things going on there. But as far as I know, none are buried in caskets. This research is more geared towards crime solving. The bodies are placed how murderers have placed them in the past, and monitored everyday to mark the rate of decomposition. It's really interesting work.
Joined: Feb 08, 2004 Posts: 965 Location: Lawrenceville
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:59 am Post subject:
Yes, I knew about the body farm and found that strangely fascinating too. It seems like there has to have been studies done on people who are buried though.
Babs _________________ Only a mountain has lived long enough to listen objectively to the howl of a wolf. -Aldo Leopold
Babs,
Yea we found quite a few cases of where bodies hadn't decomposed. Really a gory subject, but fascinating as well because of the facts of the subject. Here's a list we have so far.
St. Bernadette was the original visionary at Lourdes, France and died in 1879 in Nevers, France. Her body was exhumed 30 years later in 1909 and was discovered completely incorrupt and free of odor. The body was again exhumed a second time ten years later in 1919 and was still incorrupt. Her body is still on display in the Chapel of St. Bernadette in Nevers, France to this day.
Blessed Paula Frassinetti - Died in 1882 and her body was exhumed and found to be incorrupt in 1906. Her body is on display in the Chapel of the Convent of Santa Dorotea in Rome, Italy.
St. Catherine Laboure' - Died in 1876 and was exhumed and found incorrupt in 1933. Her body is on display under the side altar in the Chapel of Our Lady of the Sun in Paris.
St. Jean-Marie-Baptiste Vianney (Cure' of Ars) - Died in 1859 and was exhumed and found incorrupt in 1904. His body is on display above the main altar in the Basilica at Ars in France.
St. Vincent Pallotti - Died in 1850 and was exhumed and found incorrupt in 1906 and 1950. His body is on display under the main altar in the Church of St. Salvatore in Onda, Italy.
St. Teresa Margaret - Died in 1770 and was exhumed and found incorrupt in 1783. Her body is on display in a glass case at the Monastery of St. Teresa in Florence, Italy.
St. Andrew Bobola - Died in 1657 and 40 years later his body was dicovered and found incorrupt. His body is on display under the main altar in the Church of St. Andrew Bobola in Warsaw, Poland.
Bl. Osanna of Manua' - Died in 1505. Her body is on display under the altar in Our Lady of the Rosary in the Cathedral of Manua, Italy. In 1965 the relic of her body was examined in depth and still found to be well preserved (460 years old!)
St. Catherine of Bologna - Died in 1463 and has been incorrupt and on display in an upright position for over 500 years.
St. Rita of Cascia - Died in 1457. Her body is on display in a glass case in the Basilica of St. Rita in Cascia, Italy. It is also publicly known that her body has been seen in different positions in the glass case, as well as eyes have opened and closed unaided.
Bl. Margaret of Metola (Castello) - Died in 1320 and was found incorrupt in 1558. Her body is on display under the high altar of the Church of St. Domenico at Citta-di-Castello, Italy.
St. Zita - Died in 1278 and her body is on display in a glass reliquary in the Basilica of St. Frediano in Lucca, Italy
St. Sperandia - Died in 1276 her body is on display in the Benedictine convent church of Cingoli, Italy. Her body was exhumed eight different times, the last in 1952. It is still incorrupt to this day and exudes a sweet fragrance.
Saint Alphege - Was Archbishop of Canterbury and was captured, put in prison, and eventually murdered by his captors in 1012. Ten years later his perfectly incorrupt body was discovered.
Saint Withburga - Died in 743 and incorrupt body was discovered 55 years later. Her remains were on display for over 300 more years thereafter until destroyed during the Reformation.
Saint Agatha - Died in 251 and body was discovered incorrupt in the eleventh century. Parts of her incorrupt body are still in existence today.
Saint Cecilia - Died in 177 and body was discovered incorrupt in 1599, is known to be the first saint to be incorrupt.
There's also a story about Mercy Brown, in New England. Apparently at the time of her death embalming wasn't quite yet common practice so she was buried without embalming. People began hearing strange sounds from her grave and 4 years after her death she was exhumed. She was still intact for the most part and everyone believed she was a Vampire so they decapitated her to prevent her from returning.
(From our times now, we know that dead bodies left to deteriorate on their own will excreed natural intestinal gases, which will cause sounds like flatulence, which is most likely what they were hearing. And will also cause the liver to decompose in a different manner and cause color change in it.) But from the times of her death I'm sure they all truely believed she was of the undead. Actually a really interesting story.
Joined: Feb 08, 2004 Posts: 965 Location: Lawrenceville
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:36 am Post subject:
Hmmm, seems to be a common thread amongst those who do not decompose. I am going to google some of these and see if there are some images. This is just completely bizarre to me. Im assuming those listed are all of Catholic faith. Is there or was there something they did differently to ensure the bodies longevity?
Babs _________________ Only a mountain has lived long enough to listen objectively to the howl of a wolf. -Aldo Leopold
This is REALLY interesting...Wow! great thread Mysti!
But, I have to say...if I didn't know better, I would think my husband is deteriorating with all the "exceeding of natural intestinal gases & the sounds of flatulence" that excrete from his body daily!! _________________ http://www.myspace.com/haunted_hottie http://groups.myspace.com/elliscopp
Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 1893 Location: Georgia
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:34 pm Post subject:
casper_the_cutie wrote:
Could it have anything to do with the climate or the ground temperature in which these bodies are buried?
Casper
Absolutely. And many claim that Julias corpse became a bizzare, yet natural substance known as "adipocere" which resists decomposition. From Wikipedia...
Adipocere or grave wax or mortuary wax is the insoluble fatty acids left as residue from pre-existing fats from decomposing material such as a human cadaver. It is formed by the slow hydrolysis of fats in wet ground. It is generally believed to be first discovered by the Frenchman Fourcroy in the 18th century; however, Sir Thomas Browne describes this substance in his discourse, Hydriotaphia, Urn Burial of 1658:
"In a Hydropicall body ten years buried in a Church-yard, we met with a fat concretion, where the nitre of the Earth, and the salt and lixivious liquor of the body, had coagulated large lumps of fat, into the consistence of the hardest castle-soap: wherof part remaineth with us."
Adipocere inhibits the growth of bacteria, and can go some way to protecting a corpse against decomposition. It begins to form within about a month of death, and can persist on the remains for centuries. Since it forms through hydrolysis, it does so more readily in humid environments or even underwater. An exposed body is unlikely to form deposits of adipocere.
Personally, this explaination makes better sense to me vs. a so-called "miracle" that somehow preserved Julias body.
Now if one is REALLY morbidly curious, Google "grave wax" or "adipocere" But be warned - some of the imagery you will see is NOT for weak stomachs! _________________ Patrick Burns
Founder and Director, Ghost Hounds
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 329 Location: Denver, CO
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:39 pm Post subject:
Man, I totally forgot about adipocere. Probably because I hardly even knew about it. I think I will google it. I'm not worried about the imagery, though. I look at this stuff all day every day.
Joined: Sep 28, 2005 Posts: 8 Location: Des Moines,Iowa
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:09 pm Post subject: Who'd thought of such an interesting subject
Hats off to everyone who'd of thought that there'd be such an interest And the responses were even better this subject was very interesting and informative thank you to all who had a part in making this so good
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 329 Location: Denver, CO
Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:48 am Post subject:
This subject has always been intriguing to me. I enjoy studying things like this, but non-decomposing bodies are usually nothing to get excited about. The list of bodies that Mysti posted all have an obvious common thread, but to me anything that the Catholic church says is to be taken with a grain of salt. No offense to any Catholics, I don't have a problem with your religion or beliefs, but you have to admit, the Catholic church (not the religion, the church, there's a difference) has been kinda shady in the past. Also, the Catholics have long been the standard repository of information dating to before the great fires of Alexandria that threw the world into the Dark Age. They know a couple of tricks and are pretty good at taking care of their own.
Yea we were just discussing that subject tonight. Apparently some of these non decomposed bodies that are now on display (actually about 92%) have been checked and found to have been treated either by a preservative of some type or had their remains saturated or rubbed down with some sort of chemical.
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